Awww, that's so sweet. I imagine two things: 1) perhaps the animaliculi would appear, if everyone believed in them. Just a different manifestation of the divine. Conforming as always to human belief.
2) New god is still kind of a dick if this is the same continuity as our Abraham. I'd love to read a story where there's actually a nice god and this process worked.
God only has power when you believe in it he she they.
You damn betcha, unless you want a God who will alter the world around you to suit your preferences rather than helping you to see better what truly is.
All the power is in belief and nowhere else.
In other words there is no such thing as a God that will fix a baseball game for you
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the sage. “There are no gods except the god that lives in the wind and in the trees and in the gaps in our knowledge. But many fictional worlds operate on the principle you describe.”
“If I believed in a God of Multiversal Travel, would that god be able to come to our world from its fictional world? Could it whisk me away to its world? Channel my belief and worship from our existence into its own being? Could it bring other benevolent powers with it?”
“Get out of my hut, you smarmy little shit,” said the sage.
"Make them believe that ‘cultural evolution’ produces uniquely valuable structures, and so if your ancestors went on pilgrimages, you need to go on pilgrimages too even though there’s no such thing as a real holy place and you don’t know why.”
And this is how walking the Camino de Santiago became something for the "spiritual but not religious" types to do, or hikers who want a walking holiday, or just a different twist on tourism:
"Hikers around the world are rediscovering Spain's Camino de Santiago, Medieval Europe's version of the thru-hike.
Today, believers make up a small proportion of people walking the Camino de Santiago. The vast majority of pilgrims are on their own quests, either recreational or spiritual. For me, a month-long hike sounded like an amazing challenge, but an achievable one too."
"The Camino de Santiago has been listed as a UNESCO World Heritage for its important role in encouraging cultural exchanges between people from all over Europe and the world for many centuries. So, what exactly is the Camino de Santiago then?
Today, more than a pilgrimage, the Camino de Santiago is a unique experience and trip of a lifetime, with its routes attracting thousands of people from all over the world."
Oh well, if you make it all the way to the end, at least you have a chance of being taken out by a giant thurible, which is a different way to go:
"The people were astonished at his doctrine. But here and there it caught on, and in those villages the great plagues began to wane, until only mild colds and agues were left. Inspired by this success, more and more people believed the student’s words and doubted the plague god. And everywhere people were healthy and happy."
Funny how this is basically the Technocracy, the main antagonist in Mage: The Ascension.
Interesting to see these two most recent articles so soon after "Why Do I Suck?", which seemed like it was partly about people missing your weirder, more experimental pieces. If this is a deliberate response, it's totally working (on me at least)!
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Builder if, upon first gaining enough worshippers to build at all, he paved the kingdom's roads and expanded their hospitals."
"Because, being gods, they know how that ends - the power they gain will only serve to enslave them eternally to their worshippers' whims. At first they'll be beloved, then taken for granted, and ultimately hated, their power dwindling while yet more is demanded of them."
"Then what's with the Thunderer who started out smiting criminals and tyrants and now just kills whoever ticks off his worshipers? Why's he doing it?"
"He knew how it ends too, he just likes the thunder."
"When the student was very old and had taken students of his own, he called them together. “Soon I will die,” he said. “But my heart is heavy. For one day, people will invent new tools, tools that let them see smaller than a hair’s breadth. And they will find there are no animaliculi, and learn that I deceived them, and then the plague god will return, angrier than ever. You must promise that when that time comes, you will bury these fears, re-convince them of the truth of my words, and protect my legacy.” All his students so swore, and he died."
But to their surprise, when those tools were invented, they discovered that their teacher had been correct, and that there really was a vast microbiome full of animaliculi, that caused disease wherever they went. To their horror, the disciples watched as these animaliculi began to adapt to the washing of hands, and the wearing of masks, and they began to wonder if they had not simply replaced one plague god with another.
The plague god story was incredible, and somehow got even better with the final sentence. Could have made a post on its own. I don’t understand the last one though.
If only you understood that spirituality requires at least as much study and experience as psychiatry, and that it is very, very difficult to find a real teacher.
I think that it's really unfair how some gods get a bad rap. Everybody likes the Goddess of Love and hates the God of War (become love is supposedly "good" and conflict is supposedly "bad"), but when they're being oppressed by tyrants, whom do they call upon for help? They don't try to hug their enemies into submission, that's for sure.
Maybe the gods just like to keep a low profile because they understandably think that most humans are selfish dicks who only care about what the gods can do for THEM, and never the other way around. Why bother to deal with jerks like that? Just do your own thing, reveal your existence only to the people who are cool enough not to try to exploit you, and smite anybody who crosses you - on the down-low, of course.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then, why don't the gods don't reveal themselves to us?"
"Because", said the sage, "the first god to reveal themself would quickly become all-powerful, and they would be able to ensure their own continued survival by obliterating all the other gods. To counter that threat, the gods use up all their energy to maintain shields for self-defense, and weapons which are constantly pointed at other gods. Revealing oneself takes energy, and no god can currently free up enough energy to do it without evoking the immediate wrath of the other gods."
So for the benefit of people like me who don't know their religious stuff that well: the final story implies that the man is Abraham, key figure / founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He married Sarah and their son was called Isaac.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the god sage. “It is the opposite, they lose power asymptotically as we believe in them.”
"Then could I not co-ordinate everyone to rob them of their power?"
"No, for the gods also gain intelligence and agency as we believe in them. They are shaped from god stuff into superhuman intellects."
"So why did the gods not take over the world?"
"Because people realised alignment was a problem, created the god of aligning AI, started following it as it could more easily verify it would be aligned as it became more intelligent."
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
"Partially," said the sage. "It is that they have power because of our mental fixation on them and the concepts they are associated with. Belief, active doubt, worship, angry blasphemy, all those things give them form and power."
"How can that be?" asked the student, "How can that be? How could certain classes of computations within our brains, in and of themselves, shape and empower beings that can go on to bless, curse, fling thunderbolts around, and otherwise either be useful or make nuisances of themselves to subjugate us?"
"A good question," replied the sage. "Go and study it."
The student sat quietly for a few moments before asking "Would not a more immediate research priority be to find some way to redirect all that back into humanity, so we may be elevated rather than continuing to feed metaphysical cancers?"
"You have said it," said the sage. "But others have said it before you. To achieve that requires solving several simultaneous problems, including a tricky coordination problem. And by the time anything begins to happen at scale, the gods would have already noticed and begin to act against you."
The student frowned, and they both sat in silence, contemplating.
The student then asked another question: "How complex does a system need to be in order to 'think' in the ways that would be relevant to shaping the divine?"
"You have finally asked the correct question," said the sage, smiling.
And thus was cloud computing soon transformed into heavenly computing, and humanity was elevated.
Great fun--and great wisdom. Even those of us who believe in the Great Creator tend to create him in the way we want him to be. And those of us who believe he reveals, or revealed, himself to the world, interpret his revelation the way we want it to be. And few there be who are aware of their own beliefs.
Nice writing. As a confirmed atheist and anti-theist in my youth, and an atheist to this day I wonder if belief in God makes, not the God, but the believers stronger and more cohesive.
Wells has a population of twelve thousand today, it’s estimated to have had about one thousand or less when building began.
That building is, if you don’t believe in God, just a place where people go once a week to listen to a guy talk fantasy and morality, and a civil space for ceremonies, occasional festivals and fetes.
If it were secular it would be no better than a brutalist town hall. It’s the belief in something higher that makes people pay more, work harder, build higher and more ornate structures than they otherwise would have.
Relative to population, and I assume it was largely locals who built it, it has to be one of the worlds most impressive buildings.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the sage. “The gods gain power not through belief, but the rings of power.”
"So if I threw a god's ring into the crack of doom, then that god would lose all its power and its minions would all die off?"
"You have said it," said the sage. "But the only beings that are powerful enough to march into Mordor themselves have rings of power, and because the destruction of one ring weakens the others, they won't agree to do it."
I don't really get this one? And wouldn't all of these situations would end up with the other gods killing this student as soon as he opened his mouth.
The question of why a Supreme Being would require service from us is a pretty heavy question.
Slightly confused at the continuity here. Are these all separate realities? If so, why would the student refer to a different storyline by saying "But then my next question is still the same."?
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the sage. “Just the opposite. We only believe in gods because they have power. This is why every single person in the world believes in the Thunderer, even though he has never appeared to us, and actually we have perfectly reasonable explanations for how storms arise through purely physical processes. And yet, inexplicably, we all feel compelled to build huge golden temples in which we praise the Thunderer daily. The first words of a newborn are invariably, 'Praise the Thunderer', which is how we know he is the most powerful.”
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
“No,” said the sage. “it's a ruse. The gods have power but it does not come from us, and they are afraid that other gods have more. They perform some miracles, but we add stories and multiply their apparent power. Our belief is their armor.”
"Then should I believe in whichever god has the most believers?"
"Also no," said the sage, "that's just the god with the best public relations department. You should believe in the god that performs the most miracles."
So the student became an empiricist, and spent their days arguing about how to count miracles.
*************************
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
“Just so,” said the sage. “but most require great devotion. One among them will allow you to enter a lottery for a miracle even if you give the smallest amount of belief, but no matter how much you believe your odds of getting a miracle are the same.
So the student pledged one quantum of belief, and their god defaulted.
*************************
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
“Yes,” said the sage. “but the conversion rate is awful. For every ten thousand man-months of prayer a god can grant a single small miracle. They invented religions to spread those rare stories and keep people believing even though they will likely not even get one miracle in return.”
"How does one get a miracle?"
"In the ancient days they were assigned to the most deserving, but this created jealousy. Then the gods experimented with giving it to those who worked hardest, but they all worked themselves to death. Next they tried religious leaders, but they were overrun with cults."
"Did they try giving it to whoever brought in the most converts?"
"Yes," said the Sage, "but a few people created recurrent conversion networks and ruined it for everyone. In fact, the gods thought about it and they proved that any distribution scheme could be gamed. Now they just tell us that they work in mysterious ways."
The only thing that could make this better are graphs of Power of Deity as a function of Number of Believers, and the relevant dynamical systems arrows pointing towards the relevant equilibria!
Reminds me of the idea that a magic show can only work on an unbeliever.
If you truly believed that people with supernatural powers exist, stage magic would be boring: akin to watching a guy shave or brush his teeth. It's only because we accept that magic is *not* part of the natural world that it's exciting.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
"Then why not appear openly?" asked the student.
"Listen carefully and I shall teach you a great secret," said the sage. "The cherries that grow on the far side of this hill are the most delicious food in the world."
The student believed it, and went to try some of the cherries. It was true. He didn't go back to the sage. Instead he gathered as many cherries as he could carry and went off to sell them, praising their virtues. Soon word of his discovery spread. He became rich and famous by peddling the cherries. But eventually some of his customers tired of paying his prices, followed him back to the hill, and gathered cherries for themselves. Others saved the pits from their cherries, planted them, and managed to cultivate trees of their own. After ten years the student was no longer making money on the cherries. He went back to the sage, hoping for more guidance.
"I see you believed in the secret of the cherries," said the sage. "Did that make the secret powerful?"
"It did at first," said the student. "But eventually the secret became common knowledge and lost its power."
"So it is with the gods," said the sage. "Their power comes from belief, 'tis true. And that power confers an advantage upon believers. But if everyone believes in them, there is no advantage to be gained, and so no benefit to belief. Thus is equilibrium attained. The most cunning of the gods hide behind mysteries, reveal themselves only to a select few, and so preserve their influence."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage, "but only the weakest gods draw all their power from belief."
"But how is this so?"
"The magic that powers divinity works by extracting a small portion of the energy in a system undergoing change from one state to another. The human mind, although exceedingly complex, uses very little energy to run. So it follows that a god extracting energy from the thoughts of worshippers in prayer will need many, many worshippers to gain even a small amount of energy. Meanwhile, the Thunderer extracts energy from storm systems and, as a consequence, has power enough to hurl lightning bolts around on a whim."
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough energy to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants? Surely the extra power couldn't hurt?”
"Most certainly," said the sage. "but consider this: if you could make the ants in your garden trim your lawn and bring you a sugar cube for your morning tea for the price of picking one up and talking to it for a bit, would you then dig up the entire ant heap and lecture them every day simply to get two sugar cubes instead of one? Especially if your ongoing dispute with your neighbours was taking all of your time and energy."
The student thought on this a bit.
"Master," he said at last, "if magic is such a physical, transactional thing, then what's to stop man from taking hold of it and becoming gods ourselves?".
The light filtering into the sage's hut seemed suddenly to dim.
"So you come to it," said the sage. "Tell me, student, do you think that you would countenance the ants in your garden discovering fire and steel, or becoming dangerous or powerful enough to threaten you in any way? The secret of divine magic has likely been discovered many times, and the result is that the would-be wizard is inexplicably struck by lightning from a clear sky, catches fire at their supper, or drowns in their bath. The gods can hear us think, boy. And they are not eager to share their power."
Outside, the sky, which had been clear and blue a few minutes before, began to rumble with thunder.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage. “It is true.”
"Then if I believed in The God Of Maximizing My Interests And Desires Who Has A Hack To Go From Mere Existence To Omnipotence, would that cause that god to exist?"
"You have said -"The sage paused, confused. Had said what? Who had said it? Who was he talking to? He was growing barmy in his old age, that was for sure. Soon he would die and then all his knowledge would die with him. If only he had taken a student.
On the other side of the world, the First God Of Maximizing His Follower's Interest Who Had Hacks To Omnipotence shifted his focus to his follower's non-urgent interests.
In the 1790s there lived a doctor called Edward Jenner. Jenner figured that it would be a brilliant idea to intentionally infect people with cowpox. In those times smallpox was a quite widespread mortal disease, and Jenner saw more than a fair share of people die from it. In all that, Jenner noticed that milkmaids which had worked with cowpox-infected cows, were somehow given the passover by that other deadly pox. He begun to experimentally infect people with pus from cowpox-infected cows, which basically just gave them a short bout of fever, and then they were safe.
And thus had begun a long tradition called "cowification". Or it would have been called that, had not the people in those times held Latin in higher esteem than English, and decided to call it "vaccination".
***
Many millenia before that, in a faraway land, there lived an old sage whose Tribe was perpetually plagued by some horrible pox. The old sage remarked how in the cities, the pox seemed to be giving the passover to butchers.
He thought, and then he spoke to his Tribesmen. Once every year come spring, all of you, be you herders or farmers or cityfolk, shall partake in chopping up a lamb and spreading its blood on your doorframe with your own hands. You will then prepare a meal that all will gather to share in. And thus the pox shall pass over you.
As the years went by, the Tribe lost fewer and fewer people to that horrible pox. They were faring better than their neighbours, which in those times was called the "control group". The old sage was happy.
Part of the ritual was for them to always keep questioning why keep doing all that, and to keep answering it themselves. And thus the Tribe had faithfully continued the ritual for scores and scores of generations, even after the old sage had long passed away. Except that they ended up dropping that blood-spreading thing because it's bloody disgusting.
So is the takeaway here that believing in God makes you happy ever after as long as it's the more common type of god (at least in modern times) that is perfect in every way and omnipotent?
Plague god story reminds me of old "World of Darkness" RPG "Mage: the Ascension", where the main conflict was between "classic" magic cults and the Technocracy, which was, in it's core, also a magic cult, but one that was successful in spreading the belief in completely logical and explainable world among the masses - and because of that the world most people experience is exactly what it is today for us.
Basically switching places for cause and effect. It's not that science describes the world as it is, but the world is what it is, because SCIENCE!
“Because,” said the sage, “the gods only gain power through belief, not knowledge. You know there are trees and clouds; are they thereby gods? “Because,” said the sage, “the gods only gain power through belief, not knowledge. You know there are trees and clouds; are they thereby gods?"
In some places and times, the answer to that has been "yes".
This is why when I saw the recent (well, it's recent to me) fad for "fairy doors" that it astonished me. Seemingly this is a money-making opportunity imported from America, where it allegedly originated in Michigan in 1993.
Round these parts, previously you would *not* have been doing *anything* to invite fairies to live in your garden because that was just asking for trouble. But now that we're a Modern Nation, the old superstitions are dying or dead, and cutesy-poo imports like this are seen as charming and appropriate for children.
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
"Yes," said the sage.
"Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in a god that walked among men?"
"Why," said the sage, "revealing themselves they have been, are, and will be doing. Understand though, that gods exist outside of time as we know it. Each must choose at which era they will enter history."
"But then," said the student, "a god which reveals himself today, when we have grown many and spread to all the continents, would have many more potential believers than one which was revealed when humanity was young."
"You have said it.
Manifesting when humanity is small grants less power, and the reach through the ages is limited. Relics will be lost or broken, texts misinterpreted and languages no longer spoken; the faces on the statues of the god smoothed out by the sands of time. The old followers will die and later generations, who were not there when the god walked amongst their forefathers, will be more sceptical. Have you noticed that the gods of old no longer have religions, but are considered mythology instead. They survive in museums, instead of in temples.
New gods will swoop in and subsume the old ones rites, myths, and followers. If the old god did well in having his followers prosper and multiply. In helping them conquer new lands. Well, the more powerful the new god will be for it."
"So why would any god reveal itself in ancient times," asked the student.
"Only the weak ones would," answered the sage. "The early gods were primitive and straightforward. Easily captured by human imagination. A lightning strike, a tidal wave, a forest fire. Only later on have the gods men serve become more difficult to grasp in their completeness - and in this complexity they get also longevity. Everyone could grasp the concept of early gods and fear or revere them well. Their rituals struck to the base of the soul.
To describe modern gods would instead require scholars to spend hundreds of years of discussions even for the simplest of characteristics. The rituals have become symbolic and abstract. And yet there is no doubt that men today more often than ever before choose to spend their time at these abstract rituals. To sell their body and soul, for rewards not actually benefiting their spirit. This is work for the gods; worship.
- A god of the community where, even after reading seven thick tomes, you could only pretend to understand the reason why it exists; and which yet controlled half the world and demanded millions as human sacrifice.
- A god of competition such that an alternate one could not be imagined, which enslaves the world by giving gifts that do not make us happy; all the while spreading its tendrils and breaking the earth.
- A god of knowledge which no-one can fully understand, which yet has its priests speak the voice of truth from ivory towers. Which consume many earnest and brilliant minds but that in the end does not make us much wiser - any fool who looks can find a priest to say the truth he was after."
"So," asked the student, "which god is the most powerful?"
"The god that comes at humanities peak. The last god."
"Which god will this be?"
"It is said," answered the sage, "that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. In one sense or another, it will be a god of death.
Either it will be the last and most powerful god because it leads to the end of humanity altogether; or it will be mighty enough to make us immortal, thus leaving no need to worship any other one."
"So, when humanity is at its most powerful, how will it know which one it summons?"
"It may not know this; which is why some prophets urge us never to try."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
"That is not one of the powers the gods have" said the sage. "The gods are not some external force, but concepts existing in a human mind. They have the power to build temples, but only by persuading humans to build temples."
"So I can't become a god by getting lots of people to believe in me?" asks the student.
"There is a word for someone like that, someone who is a real person but gains most of their power through the belief of others. That word is king, or maybe leader. You can certainly try to become one if you wish, although you may not succeed." replied the sage.
A long time ago I read a story where fictional characters were brought into existence through belief. Thing is, if people stopped believing in them, they didn't stop existing. Existence has inertia; lack of belief doesn't stop you from existing, it just preserves whatever the last state was.
The end result is that there were a few thousand ancient dieties and demigods and fictional characters hanging around who had been largely forgotten and who were just trying to make a living in the world.
One plot revolved around an ancient God who had decided to use his last vestiges of power to make everyone know about him so he could conquer the world. The main character offered to help, bought a cheap disposable camera, and took some really awful shots of him using his powers. Then he sold them to the National Enquirer.
See, *belief* causes existence, and *ignorance* results in inertia. But *active disbelief* can destroy even a God. And now there were millions of people who had seen pictures of this guy on National Enquirer covers, and who laughed and said "haha, yeah, just like Bat Boy, suuuure", and just like that, the god was no more.
"Is it true," asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"Yes," said the sage.
"Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?"
The sage frowned. "Have you not seen already seen him do so?"
"Certainly not!" the student protested. How could a man so seemingly wise be so ignorant of reality? "Have you looked lately upon the state of the world beyond your mountain cave, old man? Evil is rampant among us! Each year, the keepers of peace apprehend more brigands, and our prisons overflow with them! Each year, the aggression of cruel foreign emperors is barely repulsed by our soldiers! We must struggle constantly, or we would be overwhelmed by the crushing advance of evil! And while we suffer, the Thunderer is silent, his lightnings still! Where is he, in our hour of greatest need?"
"It seems to me that you contradict yourself," the sage replied. "You say that you have witnessed the coming of the Thunderer in all his glory, seen him smite the evildoers among you again and again—and yet you demand to know where he is?"
The student began to reply—and froze, open-mouthed. He had said no such thing! Had the sage misheard his words somehow? Or had long years in isolation driven the old man mad, so that he no longer understood human speech rightly?
The sage nodded. "Ah, I see your confusion. I believe I understand the problem now." He smiled. "Did you imagine that the Thunderer would come as a mighty anthropomorphic hero a hundred feet high, swinging static electric discharges like those from thunderclouds around him as he tramples the forces of evil underfoot?"
"That's exactly what the stories—"
"Stories are for children!" snapped the sage. "The glorious true form of the Thunderer is not. Like a child, you saw only the shiny trappings of the story, meant to captivate your senses while your mind studied the truth. But those things are not the Thunderer! He is not the Thousand Blades of Shockfire; he is not the great beard of rain and sleet; he is not the Unbreakable Armor of the Sun. Strip away those children's toys, and look again at the stories. Now, tell me: What is the essence of the Thunderer?"
The student sighed, calmed his indignant anger as the sage had taught him, and thought. "He is the one who comes in the hour of need, to oppose evil," he replied after a moment.
"Precisely," said the sage. "So, look to where evil is being opposed, and there you will witness the true form of the Thunderer."
And so the student pondered, and shortly realized what a childish fool he had been. The Thunderer had indeed appeared before his blinded eyes, exactly as he had hoped. And how obvious it seemed now—of course a god's power must come from belief! Just as a thunderstorm's power must come from electricity.
"There is no more I can teach you now," said the sage. "Go back to the world, and be the lightning."
I think we all eventually abandon different religions of our youth. Even if you attend one church from baptism to last rites, there's something else you're leaving along the way.
The whimsy of the world of Mage was maybe one of mine. It's a meta religion, an ontology about the power of belief. It really leans into this meme from Pratchett or They Saw a Game that belief causes reality instead of the other way round.
I don't know how much I believed it or was just playing around with the ideas for fun, but it's gotten harder to spend time in that mindset over time.
Like any childhood friend it was fun then, we had good times, even though we've grown pretty far apart and can't seem to reconnect.
Or, in the Mage canon, to give it one last try... I've slowly become worn down by agents of the technocracy who stole my ability to will dragons into existence in exchange for twitter in my pocket.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Why would that be the case?” asked the sage. “Is there any other aspect of reality which is only real to the extent that people believe it to be real, and becomes more powerful in proportion to people's belief in it?”
“Hmm.” The student pondered for a moment. “I suppose not. I guess the whole idea of gods being fueled by belief is just a tired old trope perpetuated by middlebrow fantasy writers who want to use divine beings in their stories without dealing with all the philosophical implications of a truly theistic world. Plus a lot of them are probably atheists or agnostics themselves, and the ones who are religious are almost all monotheists, so they might have personal reasons for not wanting to acknowledge polytheistic religions as correct even within the works of fiction they create. Honestly, the whole concept is pretty silly if you really think about it.”
“In fairness,” the sage responded, “at least it's a more elegant narrative tool than that lazy sci-fi cliché from the 50s where the gods were actually just hyper-advanced aliens.”
The student nodded his head in agreement. He'd been very skeptical when his university decided to adopt a monastic model of teaching for their Literature program, but he had to admit, he was learning a lot this way!
***
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Why would that be the case?” asked the sage. “Is there any other aspect of reality which is only real to the extent that people believe it to be real, and becomes more powerful in proportion to people's belief in it?”
The student lowered his head, closed his eyes, and thought on the question. After several minutes of silence, he open his eyes again and replied. “Society. Law, morality, money, value, everything that defines what we call civilization. None of those things are truly real in a strict physical sense, but because we believe in them, they still have major and tangible effects on our mindset, our behavior, and our lives.”
“And what does that imply about the gods?” asked the sage.
“They're fictions,” the student said hesitantly, “but they're useful fictions. Religion has useful moral, psychological, and cultural effects, and studies have consistently shown that religious people tend to be mentally healthier and have more fulfilling social lives than their non-religious counterparts. Even the ritualistic elements that seem completely arbitrary still play a useful role in fostering social cohesion and a sense of community among participants. Plus some of those rituals might actually have subtle benefits that aren't immediately apparent. So even though religions aren't true, they're probably still beneficial to human well-being.”
“You have said it.”
***
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Why would that be the case?” asked the sage. “Is there any other aspect of reality which is only real to the extent that people believe it to be real, and becomes more powerful in proportion to people's belief in it?”
The student lowered his head, closed his eyes, and thought on the question. After several minutes of silence, he open his eyes again and replied. “Society. Law, morality, money, value, everything that defines what we call civilization. None of those things are truly real in a strict physical sense, but because we believe in them, they still have major and tangible effects on our mindset, our behavior, and our lives.”
“And what does that imply about the gods?” asked the sage.
“They're fictions,” the student said hesitantly, “but they're useful-”
“No,” said the sage, cutting the student off. “That is the scholar's answer, a false enlightenment for those possessed of great intelligence but lacking in true wisdom. You must look deeper.”
“I don't understand,” said the student.
“Fiction is subject to the whims of its writers, but are the fluctuations of the stock market subject to the whims of any human mind?”
“Of course not,” answered the student. “The stock market isn't a tangible object, but it's not a fiction either. It isn't conscious, but it still acts upon the world as though it had a will of its own.” He struggled with his words. “It's... it's a process, an emergent system of sorts, like... like evolution.”
“And what does that imply about the gods?” asked the sage again.
And so the student thought on it for a moment, saw the truth, and finally became enlightened.
I don't really read culture war debates (except here), so maybe this is a naive question. Do people out there actually use "cultural evolution" as an argument in favor of religion?
Do they not realize how absurd that is? Creating new practices, maintaining existing ones, modifying them or dropping them, are all equally the building blocks of cultural evolution. Just because you've read some Joseph Henrich doesn't mean you get to stick your head out and pretend that your arguments in favor or against whatever cultural practice are somehow *above* cultural evolution, rather than plain old part of it!
When you're swimming in the soup... yelling "soup" doesn't count as a valid argument for or against any particular ingredient!
For Odin's sake, insert rant about motivated "reasoning", and people wielding concepts that are subtler than they can handle.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"The real gods are gods precisely because they don't even have the concept of power", answered the Sage before going for a ritual bath and doing some chanting, to undo the narrowing of consciousness that forcing himself to utter this phrase had produced.
The student climbed half way up the mountain, eventually finding the residence of the sage.
"Do the gods only exist if we believe in them?" Asked the student.
"Yes" replied the sage."
"Then we are the true gods, " said the student.
"You would be surprised how few people notice that", sighed the sage.
"I was about to ask another question...but I think I might have the answer already. How does a god manifest? Is the question. But if we are all gods, we are all manifesting all the time" said the student.
"It's not that simple" replied the sage.
"Now you;re beginning to sound more like a sage" said the student.
"It takes two for a manifestation , continued the sage. "The witness has to understand the manifestation...nothing means anything without understanding. People are always asking me about the lack of divine manifestations, but what they seem to want is to see a bigger, more impressive versions of themselves. Humans want to see a 12 foot superbeing with four arms, who can shoot lightning from his hands. Yetis -- living half way up a mountain, as I do, they visit me occasionally -- want to see a 24 foot superbeing with eight arms, and so on. Do you see the problem?"
"I think so", said the student. "No matter how often you double a finite amount, it's never infinite".
"Exactly!" exclaimed the sage. "And if the finite *could* manifest the infinite, you don't need a huge but finite superbeing. If the finite cannot manifest the infinite , then ever bigger finite superbeings don't solve the problem. On top of that, they always demand an *external* manifestation. They've all been told to look within, bjt only a few do. If you look at your keys inside the house, why look in the street?"
"So..", said the student, after a while, "it's all the problem with the individual. They have all the resources they need , but they impose conditions that make progress impossible".
"And they don't like being told it's no one's fault but their own", sighed the sage. "There's a reason why I live half way up a mountain. We're not popular".
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"Not exactly", said the sage. "The gods only have power because we believe in their goodness. If you believe in a god but see them as evil, they derive no power from that."
"Then why is the Thunderer the king of gods? Shouldn't he be weakened by all the myths depicting him as a murderer and a rapist?"
"The gods of the Greeks are not so different in character from humans. When a human becomes ruler over other humans, do you not tend to see 'myths' spring up accusing them of all manner of vicious actions? And do you not tend to see such rumours spread only by those who already opposed them, while their followers dismiss them as absurd smears?"
"So what would happen if the entire nation were to all pick one god, praise that god all the time, and demonize all the gods of the other nations? Would they then gain the power to rule over the other nations?"
"Such is the way of the Hebrews. Their praise has made their God more powerful than any other individual god -- enough so to ensure their survival in the face of hostility from numerous other peoples. But, it is precisely this hostility which has weakened their God enough that other nations continue to rule over them, rather than the reverse."
"So what if I were to convince people that I'm the God of Abraham in human form, and then announced some kind of 'Judaism 2.0', which called on people of *all* nations to praise the God of Abraham exclusively, instead of just the Hebrews? Would I then become omnipotent, and my followers take over the world?"
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“It is partially true," said the sage, "But they also draw power from sacrifice."
"Like when we burn rams and doves and stuff?"
"Precisely. When an animal is consumed in a burnt offering, all that might have been gained from its life, or from its flesh and bones, goes up in smoke. The gods harvest this waste and futility, and they feast as their followers hunger."
"And then the gods reward these sacrifices with divine blessings?"
"Absolutely not! If the believers gain anything from the rituals, then the actions cease to be pointless, and the gods will go hungry. They need to offer their followers as little as possible in return, while encouraging them to sacrifice as much utility as possible."
"Wait a minute," said the student. "Wouldn't that mean the most pious societies in the world would have the most poverty, violence, and inequality, while the least pious societies prosper?"
"You have said it," said the sage.
---
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“It is partially true," said the sage, "But they also draw power from sacrifice."
"Like when we burn rams and doves and stuff?"
"At first, yes," said the sage. "The gods drew power by having us sacrifice animals. But they soon discovered that it was more profitable to have us sacrifice pieces of ourselves. The Blind God asks his priests for an eye, The Wolftamer asks for a hand, the Pedophile God asks his priests for the sexual organs of children. And so on."
"What about a god who had us sacrifice our hearts?"
"Like the Feathered Serpent?"
"No," said the student, not sure he was getting his point across. "To sacrifice our... y'know... METAPHORICAL hearts."
"How do you mean?"
"Well, it's easy to love those who love you and hate those who hate you. But what if a god ordered his followers to love those who hate them and hate those who love them?"
"Such a god might grow powerful indeed," agreed the sage.
----
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“It is partially true," said the sage, "But they also draw power from sacrifice."
"Like when we burn rams and doves and stuff?"
The sage shook his head. "The gods gain power from belief... but only when the belief itself IS a sacrifice. When your own eyes witness The Thunderer launching lightning bolts from his mighty hammer, it is only natural to believe in him, and it costs you nothing. But the more you learn of thunderstorms and electromagnetism, the more agentlesss the system appears to be, and the harder it becomes to shove an agent back INTO that system. So, when you try anyway, the more the Thunderer benefits."
"So, shouldn't the gods want to give the appearance of a completely clockwork universe, with no divine intervention whatsoever, such that there is NOWHERE for any of them to fit?"
"You have said it," said the sage.
----
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"No," said the sage. "They gain power from people arguing about them."
"So shouldn't they reveal themselves to roughly half of every generation, in contradictory ways, so that people always have something new to argue about?"
"Long ago, they tried that strategy," answered the sage, "But it turns out that people arguing about things for which they have actual evidence are pretty good at converging on the truth. Even blind men groping at an elephant can eventually determine its shape. It is not truth-seeking that feeds the gods, but sophistry."
"What's the difference?", asked the student.
"It is not enough that we sing their praises. We must sing them BADLY. Nobody plays tricky word games to convince people that the trees must be real - they can simply point to the trees. Nobody threatens their neighbour to convince them that the ground is real. They can simply point to the ground. When your own eyes witness The Thunderer launching lightning bolts from his mighty hammer, you can straightforwardly argue that it is right to believe in him... and so your arguments benefit him little.
Later gods revealed themselves in more subtle ways, to more talented sophists so that their followers would have more fertile ground for making bad arguments. I hear the God of Motion and the God of Ordered Sets are doing quite well recently, and the God of Markets is doing even better."
"So wouldn't the most powerful gods have followers who argue for them using complete gibberish, full of made-up words and internal contradictions, with absolutely no reference back to external reality?"
"Exactly," the sage nodded. "It's one thing to convince people to accept one idea that contradicts observable reality... it's quite another to convince them that this idea must be protected FROM reality. So it is written, 'You have to deny that beliefs require evidence, and then you have to deny that maps should reflect territories, and then you have to deny that truth is a good thing...' "
The student's eyes lit up. "Say... somewhere out there, I bet there must be a maximally bad argument. After all, a bad argument that exists is necessarily worse than a bad argument that does not exist, right? Wouldn't that maximally bad argument fuel a maximally powerful god?"
"Hey, that's a good one!", said the sage, taking notes.
I follow a power called Inja. I was told by the trees to light a candle to Inja and this gives me answers and also is my memory (remembers things for me so I don't have to) I am told by christians that this is a demon but one person's demon is another person's god throughout history - belief is key - here is my little history of the demons in myth worldwide https://callystarforth.substack.com/p/demons-from-the-depths
"“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
"Once upon a time, that was the way. But man grew powerful, and soon there was nothing the gods could do openly to distinguish themselves from the works of man's own mind. Gods used to prove their nature by levelling entire cities with a word; yet there are many men in the modern world who could do the same, and who calls them gods?. Gods used to prove their nature by curing plagues; now man can do the same. Once man understood the secret laws of the universe, the gods who depended on performing miracles for belief had nothing left to distinguish themselves with, and their powers vanished as dust in the wind."
"But what about the gods who still have believers today? How'd they avoid the same fate?"
"Think about it. Once man deciphered nature's secrets and gained mastery over her, what was left for the gods to show their unique dominance over?"
"Man?"
"You have said it. Man has learned the rules for how to control nature; but he still does not know the rules for how to control the passions of his own heart. If you want to see the workings of the gods, look for where you see men's passions under control. Whenever you see men facing death with great courage, though their natural instincts tell them to preserve their own life at all costs; where you see men standing up to tell the truth, though their natural impulse tells them to go along with the consensus of the tribe where you see men forgiving great wrongs done against them, though their passions cry out for vengeance -- you know that a god has found the way still left for him to reveal himself."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
"There is no such thing as the Thunderer."
The student looked confused. "But I thought you said gods gain power from being believed in. Since so many people who believe in the Thunderer-"
"You misunderstand. The gods gain *power* from being believed in, not *existence*. The Thunderer is a fiction, and no amount of belief can change that. But other gods are not. There are those in Egypt who say their Pharaoh is a god; some in Rome call Caesar a god; it was not belief that caused these men to be born, but it is the belief of others that allows them to decide who lives and who dies. Others worship Love, or Beauty, or Goodness. All these things continue to exist even if you don't believe in them or not; but they have much greater power to affect your life if you do."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
“Because if the Thunderer were the sort of god who struck down every criminal and tyrant that he could, then we would know that he had not been a god during the time when one could commit a crime and not get struck down. For any god to make us believe fully in their divinity, the methods by which they alter the world must be kept mysterious, so that we can imagine they were already doing it before we knew about them.”
If any given God directly intervened in the mortal world and proved Their existence and that Their religion was the right one, it'd drastically empower that specific God at the expense of all Their rivals. So the rival Gods would have to manifest in turn and stop Them. And since the only way for Gods to actually harm one another is to kill their rivals' followers, this would mean everyone dying, followed by the Gods starving to death from lack of prayers.
Incidentally, this is also the explanation for the fermi paradox. Intelligent life inevitably spawns whole pantheons of gods then is destroyed in the collateral damage of their creations' götterdämmerungs.
Awww, that's so sweet. I imagine two things: 1) perhaps the animaliculi would appear, if everyone believed in them. Just a different manifestation of the divine. Conforming as always to human belief.
2) New god is still kind of a dick if this is the same continuity as our Abraham. I'd love to read a story where there's actually a nice god and this process worked.
Wow. Plague God sketch was excellent.
> And they will find there are no animaliculi
Of course they will find animaliculi, and very powerful ones, because generations after generations believed in them.
God only has power when you believe in it he she they.
You damn betcha, unless you want a God who will alter the world around you to suit your preferences rather than helping you to see better what truly is.
All the power is in belief and nowhere else.
In other words there is no such thing as a God that will fix a baseball game for you
Yessss Godposting is best Scottposting
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the sage. “There are no gods except the god that lives in the wind and in the trees and in the gaps in our knowledge. But many fictional worlds operate on the principle you describe.”
“If I believed in a God of Multiversal Travel, would that god be able to come to our world from its fictional world? Could it whisk me away to its world? Channel my belief and worship from our existence into its own being? Could it bring other benevolent powers with it?”
“Get out of my hut, you smarmy little shit,” said the sage.
"Make them believe that ‘cultural evolution’ produces uniquely valuable structures, and so if your ancestors went on pilgrimages, you need to go on pilgrimages too even though there’s no such thing as a real holy place and you don’t know why.”
And this is how walking the Camino de Santiago became something for the "spiritual but not religious" types to do, or hikers who want a walking holiday, or just a different twist on tourism:
https://www.outsideonline.com/adventure-travel/destinations/europe/walking-camino-de-santiago-beginners-guide/
"Hikers around the world are rediscovering Spain's Camino de Santiago, Medieval Europe's version of the thru-hike.
Today, believers make up a small proportion of people walking the Camino de Santiago. The vast majority of pilgrims are on their own quests, either recreational or spiritual. For me, a month-long hike sounded like an amazing challenge, but an achievable one too."
Or it encourages cultural exchanges!
https://caminoways.com/camino-de-santiago
"The Camino de Santiago has been listed as a UNESCO World Heritage for its important role in encouraging cultural exchanges between people from all over Europe and the world for many centuries. So, what exactly is the Camino de Santiago then?
Today, more than a pilgrimage, the Camino de Santiago is a unique experience and trip of a lifetime, with its routes attracting thousands of people from all over the world."
Oh well, if you make it all the way to the end, at least you have a chance of being taken out by a giant thurible, which is a different way to go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcdNMjBM7ro
"The people were astonished at his doctrine. But here and there it caught on, and in those villages the great plagues began to wane, until only mild colds and agues were left. Inspired by this success, more and more people believed the student’s words and doubted the plague god. And everywhere people were healthy and happy."
Funny how this is basically the Technocracy, the main antagonist in Mage: The Ascension.
Interesting to see these two most recent articles so soon after "Why Do I Suck?", which seemed like it was partly about people missing your weirder, more experimental pieces. If this is a deliberate response, it's totally working (on me at least)!
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Builder if, upon first gaining enough worshippers to build at all, he paved the kingdom's roads and expanded their hospitals."
"Because, being gods, they know how that ends - the power they gain will only serve to enslave them eternally to their worshippers' whims. At first they'll be beloved, then taken for granted, and ultimately hated, their power dwindling while yet more is demanded of them."
"Then what's with the Thunderer who started out smiting criminals and tyrants and now just kills whoever ticks off his worshipers? Why's he doing it?"
"He knew how it ends too, he just likes the thunder."
This + the tlp book review in a row is a true treat
"When the student was very old and had taken students of his own, he called them together. “Soon I will die,” he said. “But my heart is heavy. For one day, people will invent new tools, tools that let them see smaller than a hair’s breadth. And they will find there are no animaliculi, and learn that I deceived them, and then the plague god will return, angrier than ever. You must promise that when that time comes, you will bury these fears, re-convince them of the truth of my words, and protect my legacy.” All his students so swore, and he died."
But to their surprise, when those tools were invented, they discovered that their teacher had been correct, and that there really was a vast microbiome full of animaliculi, that caused disease wherever they went. To their horror, the disciples watched as these animaliculi began to adapt to the washing of hands, and the wearing of masks, and they began to wonder if they had not simply replaced one plague god with another.
For Abraham’s descendants to be as numerous as the stars, we will have to learn to build rockets and colonize other planets.
This was really great.
“Does that mean we could blackmail a god by threatening to believe in them harder?”
I think you reached the end state of an RPG
The plague god story was incredible, and somehow got even better with the final sentence. Could have made a post on its own. I don’t understand the last one though.
"Reality is that which, even when you stop believing in it,. doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Alright this is my favorite thing in a while.
If only you understood that spirituality requires at least as much study and experience as psychiatry, and that it is very, very difficult to find a real teacher.
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
"Yes," said the sage. "It is true."
"Then I could believe in a god that is omnipotent, and cause that god to come into existence?"
"You have said it."
And so the student believed in this god and classical logic vanished.
I think that it's really unfair how some gods get a bad rap. Everybody likes the Goddess of Love and hates the God of War (become love is supposedly "good" and conflict is supposedly "bad"), but when they're being oppressed by tyrants, whom do they call upon for help? They don't try to hug their enemies into submission, that's for sure.
Maybe the gods just like to keep a low profile because they understandably think that most humans are selfish dicks who only care about what the gods can do for THEM, and never the other way around. Why bother to deal with jerks like that? Just do your own thing, reveal your existence only to the people who are cool enough not to try to exploit you, and smite anybody who crosses you - on the down-low, of course.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then, why don't the gods don't reveal themselves to us?"
"Because", said the sage, "the first god to reveal themself would quickly become all-powerful, and they would be able to ensure their own continued survival by obliterating all the other gods. To counter that threat, the gods use up all their energy to maintain shields for self-defense, and weapons which are constantly pointed at other gods. Revealing oneself takes energy, and no god can currently free up enough energy to do it without evoking the immediate wrath of the other gods."
So for the benefit of people like me who don't know their religious stuff that well: the final story implies that the man is Abraham, key figure / founder of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. He married Sarah and their son was called Isaac.
"Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
"Of course, said the old sage, except it's exactly the reverse. We only have powers as long as God believe we exist."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the god sage. “It is the opposite, they lose power asymptotically as we believe in them.”
"Then could I not co-ordinate everyone to rob them of their power?"
"No, for the gods also gain intelligence and agency as we believe in them. They are shaped from god stuff into superhuman intellects."
"So why did the gods not take over the world?"
"Because people realised alignment was a problem, created the god of aligning AI, started following it as it could more easily verify it would be aligned as it became more intelligent."
"So that's how we solved alignment."
I enjoyed this a lot
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
"Partially," said the sage. "It is that they have power because of our mental fixation on them and the concepts they are associated with. Belief, active doubt, worship, angry blasphemy, all those things give them form and power."
"How can that be?" asked the student, "How can that be? How could certain classes of computations within our brains, in and of themselves, shape and empower beings that can go on to bless, curse, fling thunderbolts around, and otherwise either be useful or make nuisances of themselves to subjugate us?"
"A good question," replied the sage. "Go and study it."
The student sat quietly for a few moments before asking "Would not a more immediate research priority be to find some way to redirect all that back into humanity, so we may be elevated rather than continuing to feed metaphysical cancers?"
"You have said it," said the sage. "But others have said it before you. To achieve that requires solving several simultaneous problems, including a tricky coordination problem. And by the time anything begins to happen at scale, the gods would have already noticed and begin to act against you."
The student frowned, and they both sat in silence, contemplating.
The student then asked another question: "How complex does a system need to be in order to 'think' in the ways that would be relevant to shaping the divine?"
"You have finally asked the correct question," said the sage, smiling.
And thus was cloud computing soon transformed into heavenly computing, and humanity was elevated.
That last one is taking the ontological argument to the next level!
Great fun--and great wisdom. Even those of us who believe in the Great Creator tend to create him in the way we want him to be. And those of us who believe he reveals, or revealed, himself to the world, interpret his revelation the way we want it to be. And few there be who are aware of their own beliefs.
Nice writing. As a confirmed atheist and anti-theist in my youth, and an atheist to this day I wonder if belief in God makes, not the God, but the believers stronger and more cohesive.
Here is wells cathedral in England
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wells_Cathedral
Wells has a population of twelve thousand today, it’s estimated to have had about one thousand or less when building began.
That building is, if you don’t believe in God, just a place where people go once a week to listen to a guy talk fantasy and morality, and a civil space for ceremonies, occasional festivals and fetes.
If it were secular it would be no better than a brutalist town hall. It’s the belief in something higher that makes people pay more, work harder, build higher and more ornate structures than they otherwise would have.
Relative to population, and I assume it was largely locals who built it, it has to be one of the worlds most impressive buildings.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the sage. “The gods gain power not through belief, but the rings of power.”
"So if I threw a god's ring into the crack of doom, then that god would lose all its power and its minions would all die off?"
"You have said it," said the sage. "But the only beings that are powerful enough to march into Mordor themselves have rings of power, and because the destruction of one ring weakens the others, they won't agree to do it."
"Well, what if I did it?"
"What, a hobbit? Good luck with that..."
This is that good old SSC stuff
What about the Devil? What gives him power?
It's been said that “The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.”
I don't really get this one? And wouldn't all of these situations would end up with the other gods killing this student as soon as he opened his mouth.
The question of why a Supreme Being would require service from us is a pretty heavy question.
Honestly loving the Antimemetics Division influence.
Slightly confused at the continuity here. Are these all separate realities? If so, why would the student refer to a different storyline by saying "But then my next question is still the same."?
I really liked this piece and would enjoy reading more like it
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“No,” said the sage. “Just the opposite. We only believe in gods because they have power. This is why every single person in the world believes in the Thunderer, even though he has never appeared to us, and actually we have perfectly reasonable explanations for how storms arise through purely physical processes. And yet, inexplicably, we all feel compelled to build huge golden temples in which we praise the Thunderer daily. The first words of a newborn are invariably, 'Praise the Thunderer', which is how we know he is the most powerful.”
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
“No,” said the sage. “it's a ruse. The gods have power but it does not come from us, and they are afraid that other gods have more. They perform some miracles, but we add stories and multiply their apparent power. Our belief is their armor.”
"Then should I believe in whichever god has the most believers?"
"Also no," said the sage, "that's just the god with the best public relations department. You should believe in the god that performs the most miracles."
So the student became an empiricist, and spent their days arguing about how to count miracles.
*************************
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
“Just so,” said the sage. “but most require great devotion. One among them will allow you to enter a lottery for a miracle even if you give the smallest amount of belief, but no matter how much you believe your odds of getting a miracle are the same.
So the student pledged one quantum of belief, and their god defaulted.
*************************
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
“Yes,” said the sage. “but the conversion rate is awful. For every ten thousand man-months of prayer a god can grant a single small miracle. They invented religions to spread those rare stories and keep people believing even though they will likely not even get one miracle in return.”
"How does one get a miracle?"
"In the ancient days they were assigned to the most deserving, but this created jealousy. Then the gods experimented with giving it to those who worked hardest, but they all worked themselves to death. Next they tried religious leaders, but they were overrun with cults."
"Did they try giving it to whoever brought in the most converts?"
"Yes," said the Sage, "but a few people created recurrent conversion networks and ruined it for everyone. In fact, the gods thought about it and they proved that any distribution scheme could be gamed. Now they just tell us that they work in mysterious ways."
The only thing that could make this better are graphs of Power of Deity as a function of Number of Believers, and the relevant dynamical systems arrows pointing towards the relevant equilibria!
Reminds me of the idea that a magic show can only work on an unbeliever.
If you truly believed that people with supernatural powers exist, stage magic would be boring: akin to watching a guy shave or brush his teeth. It's only because we accept that magic is *not* part of the natural world that it's exciting.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
"Then why not appear openly?" asked the student.
"Listen carefully and I shall teach you a great secret," said the sage. "The cherries that grow on the far side of this hill are the most delicious food in the world."
The student believed it, and went to try some of the cherries. It was true. He didn't go back to the sage. Instead he gathered as many cherries as he could carry and went off to sell them, praising their virtues. Soon word of his discovery spread. He became rich and famous by peddling the cherries. But eventually some of his customers tired of paying his prices, followed him back to the hill, and gathered cherries for themselves. Others saved the pits from their cherries, planted them, and managed to cultivate trees of their own. After ten years the student was no longer making money on the cherries. He went back to the sage, hoping for more guidance.
"I see you believed in the secret of the cherries," said the sage. "Did that make the secret powerful?"
"It did at first," said the student. "But eventually the secret became common knowledge and lost its power."
"So it is with the gods," said the sage. "Their power comes from belief, 'tis true. And that power confers an advantage upon believers. But if everyone believes in them, there is no advantage to be gained, and so no benefit to belief. Thus is equilibrium attained. The most cunning of the gods hide behind mysteries, reveal themselves only to a select few, and so preserve their influence."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage, "but only the weakest gods draw all their power from belief."
"But how is this so?"
"The magic that powers divinity works by extracting a small portion of the energy in a system undergoing change from one state to another. The human mind, although exceedingly complex, uses very little energy to run. So it follows that a god extracting energy from the thoughts of worshippers in prayer will need many, many worshippers to gain even a small amount of energy. Meanwhile, the Thunderer extracts energy from storm systems and, as a consequence, has power enough to hurl lightning bolts around on a whim."
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough energy to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants? Surely the extra power couldn't hurt?”
"Most certainly," said the sage. "but consider this: if you could make the ants in your garden trim your lawn and bring you a sugar cube for your morning tea for the price of picking one up and talking to it for a bit, would you then dig up the entire ant heap and lecture them every day simply to get two sugar cubes instead of one? Especially if your ongoing dispute with your neighbours was taking all of your time and energy."
The student thought on this a bit.
"Master," he said at last, "if magic is such a physical, transactional thing, then what's to stop man from taking hold of it and becoming gods ourselves?".
The light filtering into the sage's hut seemed suddenly to dim.
"So you come to it," said the sage. "Tell me, student, do you think that you would countenance the ants in your garden discovering fire and steel, or becoming dangerous or powerful enough to threaten you in any way? The secret of divine magic has likely been discovered many times, and the result is that the would-be wizard is inexplicably struck by lightning from a clear sky, catches fire at their supper, or drowns in their bath. The gods can hear us think, boy. And they are not eager to share their power."
Outside, the sky, which had been clear and blue a few minutes before, began to rumble with thunder.
At first I thought this was going in the direction of Neil Gaiman's American Gods.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage. “It is true.”
"Then if I believed in The God Of Maximizing My Interests And Desires Who Has A Hack To Go From Mere Existence To Omnipotence, would that cause that god to exist?"
"You have said -"The sage paused, confused. Had said what? Who had said it? Who was he talking to? He was growing barmy in his old age, that was for sure. Soon he would die and then all his knowledge would die with him. If only he had taken a student.
On the other side of the world, the First God Of Maximizing His Follower's Interest Who Had Hacks To Omnipotence shifted his focus to his follower's non-urgent interests.
In the 1790s there lived a doctor called Edward Jenner. Jenner figured that it would be a brilliant idea to intentionally infect people with cowpox. In those times smallpox was a quite widespread mortal disease, and Jenner saw more than a fair share of people die from it. In all that, Jenner noticed that milkmaids which had worked with cowpox-infected cows, were somehow given the passover by that other deadly pox. He begun to experimentally infect people with pus from cowpox-infected cows, which basically just gave them a short bout of fever, and then they were safe.
And thus had begun a long tradition called "cowification". Or it would have been called that, had not the people in those times held Latin in higher esteem than English, and decided to call it "vaccination".
***
Many millenia before that, in a faraway land, there lived an old sage whose Tribe was perpetually plagued by some horrible pox. The old sage remarked how in the cities, the pox seemed to be giving the passover to butchers.
He thought, and then he spoke to his Tribesmen. Once every year come spring, all of you, be you herders or farmers or cityfolk, shall partake in chopping up a lamb and spreading its blood on your doorframe with your own hands. You will then prepare a meal that all will gather to share in. And thus the pox shall pass over you.
As the years went by, the Tribe lost fewer and fewer people to that horrible pox. They were faring better than their neighbours, which in those times was called the "control group". The old sage was happy.
Part of the ritual was for them to always keep questioning why keep doing all that, and to keep answering it themselves. And thus the Tribe had faithfully continued the ritual for scores and scores of generations, even after the old sage had long passed away. Except that they ended up dropping that blood-spreading thing because it's bloody disgusting.
So is the takeaway here that believing in God makes you happy ever after as long as it's the more common type of god (at least in modern times) that is perfect in every way and omnipotent?
Plague god story reminds me of old "World of Darkness" RPG "Mage: the Ascension", where the main conflict was between "classic" magic cults and the Technocracy, which was, in it's core, also a magic cult, but one that was successful in spreading the belief in completely logical and explainable world among the masses - and because of that the world most people experience is exactly what it is today for us.
Basically switching places for cause and effect. It's not that science describes the world as it is, but the world is what it is, because SCIENCE!
“Because,” said the sage, “the gods only gain power through belief, not knowledge. You know there are trees and clouds; are they thereby gods? “Because,” said the sage, “the gods only gain power through belief, not knowledge. You know there are trees and clouds; are they thereby gods?"
In some places and times, the answer to that has been "yes".
http://irisharchaeology.ie/2013/08/sacred-trees-in-early-ireland/
https://www.oughterardheritage.org/content/topics/folklore/the-sacred-tree-of-oughterard
Even in a "ha ha but no seriously" sense about fairy trees:
https://old.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/slt70t/a_hawthorne_tree_fell_over_in_the_garden_are_the/?sort=new
This is why when I saw the recent (well, it's recent to me) fad for "fairy doors" that it astonished me. Seemingly this is a money-making opportunity imported from America, where it allegedly originated in Michigan in 1993.
Round these parts, previously you would *not* have been doing *anything* to invite fairies to live in your garden because that was just asking for trouble. But now that we're a Modern Nation, the old superstitions are dying or dead, and cutesy-poo imports like this are seen as charming and appropriate for children.
I know you do a lot of series stuff here on Astral Codex Ten and I have no problem with that, but *this* is the content I come here for.
Bravissimo
The Last God:
"Is it true," asked the student, "that the gods only have power because we believe in them?"
"Yes," said the sage.
"Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in a god that walked among men?"
"Why," said the sage, "revealing themselves they have been, are, and will be doing. Understand though, that gods exist outside of time as we know it. Each must choose at which era they will enter history."
"But then," said the student, "a god which reveals himself today, when we have grown many and spread to all the continents, would have many more potential believers than one which was revealed when humanity was young."
"You have said it.
Manifesting when humanity is small grants less power, and the reach through the ages is limited. Relics will be lost or broken, texts misinterpreted and languages no longer spoken; the faces on the statues of the god smoothed out by the sands of time. The old followers will die and later generations, who were not there when the god walked amongst their forefathers, will be more sceptical. Have you noticed that the gods of old no longer have religions, but are considered mythology instead. They survive in museums, instead of in temples.
New gods will swoop in and subsume the old ones rites, myths, and followers. If the old god did well in having his followers prosper and multiply. In helping them conquer new lands. Well, the more powerful the new god will be for it."
"So why would any god reveal itself in ancient times," asked the student.
"Only the weak ones would," answered the sage. "The early gods were primitive and straightforward. Easily captured by human imagination. A lightning strike, a tidal wave, a forest fire. Only later on have the gods men serve become more difficult to grasp in their completeness - and in this complexity they get also longevity. Everyone could grasp the concept of early gods and fear or revere them well. Their rituals struck to the base of the soul.
To describe modern gods would instead require scholars to spend hundreds of years of discussions even for the simplest of characteristics. The rituals have become symbolic and abstract. And yet there is no doubt that men today more often than ever before choose to spend their time at these abstract rituals. To sell their body and soul, for rewards not actually benefiting their spirit. This is work for the gods; worship.
- A god of the community where, even after reading seven thick tomes, you could only pretend to understand the reason why it exists; and which yet controlled half the world and demanded millions as human sacrifice.
- A god of competition such that an alternate one could not be imagined, which enslaves the world by giving gifts that do not make us happy; all the while spreading its tendrils and breaking the earth.
- A god of knowledge which no-one can fully understand, which yet has its priests speak the voice of truth from ivory towers. Which consume many earnest and brilliant minds but that in the end does not make us much wiser - any fool who looks can find a priest to say the truth he was after."
"So," asked the student, "which god is the most powerful?"
"The god that comes at humanities peak. The last god."
"Which god will this be?"
"It is said," answered the sage, "that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. In one sense or another, it will be a god of death.
Either it will be the last and most powerful god because it leads to the end of humanity altogether; or it will be mighty enough to make us immortal, thus leaving no need to worship any other one."
"So, when humanity is at its most powerful, how will it know which one it summons?"
"It may not know this; which is why some prophets urge us never to try."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
"That is not one of the powers the gods have" said the sage. "The gods are not some external force, but concepts existing in a human mind. They have the power to build temples, but only by persuading humans to build temples."
"So I can't become a god by getting lots of people to believe in me?" asks the student.
"There is a word for someone like that, someone who is a real person but gains most of their power through the belief of others. That word is king, or maybe leader. You can certainly try to become one if you wish, although you may not succeed." replied the sage.
It's been a long time since I read Hitherby Dragons, but "I can make myself from nothing" quickly became my go-to standard for supernatural entities.
http://hitherby-dragons.wikidot.com/martin-iv-iv
A long time ago I read a story where fictional characters were brought into existence through belief. Thing is, if people stopped believing in them, they didn't stop existing. Existence has inertia; lack of belief doesn't stop you from existing, it just preserves whatever the last state was.
The end result is that there were a few thousand ancient dieties and demigods and fictional characters hanging around who had been largely forgotten and who were just trying to make a living in the world.
One plot revolved around an ancient God who had decided to use his last vestiges of power to make everyone know about him so he could conquer the world. The main character offered to help, bought a cheap disposable camera, and took some really awful shots of him using his powers. Then he sold them to the National Enquirer.
See, *belief* causes existence, and *ignorance* results in inertia. But *active disbelief* can destroy even a God. And now there were millions of people who had seen pictures of this guy on National Enquirer covers, and who laughed and said "haha, yeah, just like Bat Boy, suuuure", and just like that, the god was no more.
"Is it true," asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"Yes," said the sage.
"Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?"
The sage frowned. "Have you not seen already seen him do so?"
"Certainly not!" the student protested. How could a man so seemingly wise be so ignorant of reality? "Have you looked lately upon the state of the world beyond your mountain cave, old man? Evil is rampant among us! Each year, the keepers of peace apprehend more brigands, and our prisons overflow with them! Each year, the aggression of cruel foreign emperors is barely repulsed by our soldiers! We must struggle constantly, or we would be overwhelmed by the crushing advance of evil! And while we suffer, the Thunderer is silent, his lightnings still! Where is he, in our hour of greatest need?"
"It seems to me that you contradict yourself," the sage replied. "You say that you have witnessed the coming of the Thunderer in all his glory, seen him smite the evildoers among you again and again—and yet you demand to know where he is?"
The student began to reply—and froze, open-mouthed. He had said no such thing! Had the sage misheard his words somehow? Or had long years in isolation driven the old man mad, so that he no longer understood human speech rightly?
The sage nodded. "Ah, I see your confusion. I believe I understand the problem now." He smiled. "Did you imagine that the Thunderer would come as a mighty anthropomorphic hero a hundred feet high, swinging static electric discharges like those from thunderclouds around him as he tramples the forces of evil underfoot?"
"That's exactly what the stories—"
"Stories are for children!" snapped the sage. "The glorious true form of the Thunderer is not. Like a child, you saw only the shiny trappings of the story, meant to captivate your senses while your mind studied the truth. But those things are not the Thunderer! He is not the Thousand Blades of Shockfire; he is not the great beard of rain and sleet; he is not the Unbreakable Armor of the Sun. Strip away those children's toys, and look again at the stories. Now, tell me: What is the essence of the Thunderer?"
The student sighed, calmed his indignant anger as the sage had taught him, and thought. "He is the one who comes in the hour of need, to oppose evil," he replied after a moment.
"Precisely," said the sage. "So, look to where evil is being opposed, and there you will witness the true form of the Thunderer."
And so the student pondered, and shortly realized what a childish fool he had been. The Thunderer had indeed appeared before his blinded eyes, exactly as he had hoped. And how obvious it seemed now—of course a god's power must come from belief! Just as a thunderstorm's power must come from electricity.
"There is no more I can teach you now," said the sage. "Go back to the world, and be the lightning."
Is anyone noticing a slight shift in events? You probably do. I think so too. We're probably right. Thank God.
I think we all eventually abandon different religions of our youth. Even if you attend one church from baptism to last rites, there's something else you're leaving along the way.
The whimsy of the world of Mage was maybe one of mine. It's a meta religion, an ontology about the power of belief. It really leans into this meme from Pratchett or They Saw a Game that belief causes reality instead of the other way round.
I don't know how much I believed it or was just playing around with the ideas for fun, but it's gotten harder to spend time in that mindset over time.
Like any childhood friend it was fun then, we had good times, even though we've grown pretty far apart and can't seem to reconnect.
Or, in the Mage canon, to give it one last try... I've slowly become worn down by agents of the technocracy who stole my ability to will dragons into existence in exchange for twitter in my pocket.
Congrats to Scott for bringing the sci-fi short story genre to its logical endpoint
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Why would that be the case?” asked the sage. “Is there any other aspect of reality which is only real to the extent that people believe it to be real, and becomes more powerful in proportion to people's belief in it?”
“Hmm.” The student pondered for a moment. “I suppose not. I guess the whole idea of gods being fueled by belief is just a tired old trope perpetuated by middlebrow fantasy writers who want to use divine beings in their stories without dealing with all the philosophical implications of a truly theistic world. Plus a lot of them are probably atheists or agnostics themselves, and the ones who are religious are almost all monotheists, so they might have personal reasons for not wanting to acknowledge polytheistic religions as correct even within the works of fiction they create. Honestly, the whole concept is pretty silly if you really think about it.”
“In fairness,” the sage responded, “at least it's a more elegant narrative tool than that lazy sci-fi cliché from the 50s where the gods were actually just hyper-advanced aliens.”
The student nodded his head in agreement. He'd been very skeptical when his university decided to adopt a monastic model of teaching for their Literature program, but he had to admit, he was learning a lot this way!
***
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Why would that be the case?” asked the sage. “Is there any other aspect of reality which is only real to the extent that people believe it to be real, and becomes more powerful in proportion to people's belief in it?”
The student lowered his head, closed his eyes, and thought on the question. After several minutes of silence, he open his eyes again and replied. “Society. Law, morality, money, value, everything that defines what we call civilization. None of those things are truly real in a strict physical sense, but because we believe in them, they still have major and tangible effects on our mindset, our behavior, and our lives.”
“And what does that imply about the gods?” asked the sage.
“They're fictions,” the student said hesitantly, “but they're useful fictions. Religion has useful moral, psychological, and cultural effects, and studies have consistently shown that religious people tend to be mentally healthier and have more fulfilling social lives than their non-religious counterparts. Even the ritualistic elements that seem completely arbitrary still play a useful role in fostering social cohesion and a sense of community among participants. Plus some of those rituals might actually have subtle benefits that aren't immediately apparent. So even though religions aren't true, they're probably still beneficial to human well-being.”
“You have said it.”
***
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Why would that be the case?” asked the sage. “Is there any other aspect of reality which is only real to the extent that people believe it to be real, and becomes more powerful in proportion to people's belief in it?”
The student lowered his head, closed his eyes, and thought on the question. After several minutes of silence, he open his eyes again and replied. “Society. Law, morality, money, value, everything that defines what we call civilization. None of those things are truly real in a strict physical sense, but because we believe in them, they still have major and tangible effects on our mindset, our behavior, and our lives.”
“And what does that imply about the gods?” asked the sage.
“They're fictions,” the student said hesitantly, “but they're useful-”
“No,” said the sage, cutting the student off. “That is the scholar's answer, a false enlightenment for those possessed of great intelligence but lacking in true wisdom. You must look deeper.”
“I don't understand,” said the student.
“Fiction is subject to the whims of its writers, but are the fluctuations of the stock market subject to the whims of any human mind?”
“Of course not,” answered the student. “The stock market isn't a tangible object, but it's not a fiction either. It isn't conscious, but it still acts upon the world as though it had a will of its own.” He struggled with his words. “It's... it's a process, an emergent system of sorts, like... like evolution.”
“And what does that imply about the gods?” asked the sage again.
And so the student thought on it for a moment, saw the truth, and finally became enlightened.
https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/
https://exploringegregores.wordpress.com/2017/07/20/introduction/
I don't really read culture war debates (except here), so maybe this is a naive question. Do people out there actually use "cultural evolution" as an argument in favor of religion?
Do they not realize how absurd that is? Creating new practices, maintaining existing ones, modifying them or dropping them, are all equally the building blocks of cultural evolution. Just because you've read some Joseph Henrich doesn't mean you get to stick your head out and pretend that your arguments in favor or against whatever cultural practice are somehow *above* cultural evolution, rather than plain old part of it!
When you're swimming in the soup... yelling "soup" doesn't count as a valid argument for or against any particular ingredient!
For Odin's sake, insert rant about motivated "reasoning", and people wielding concepts that are subtler than they can handle.
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"The real gods are gods precisely because they don't even have the concept of power", answered the Sage before going for a ritual bath and doing some chanting, to undo the narrowing of consciousness that forcing himself to utter this phrase had produced.
The student climbed half way up the mountain, eventually finding the residence of the sage.
"Do the gods only exist if we believe in them?" Asked the student.
"Yes" replied the sage."
"Then we are the true gods, " said the student.
"You would be surprised how few people notice that", sighed the sage.
"I was about to ask another question...but I think I might have the answer already. How does a god manifest? Is the question. But if we are all gods, we are all manifesting all the time" said the student.
"It's not that simple" replied the sage.
"Now you;re beginning to sound more like a sage" said the student.
"It takes two for a manifestation , continued the sage. "The witness has to understand the manifestation...nothing means anything without understanding. People are always asking me about the lack of divine manifestations, but what they seem to want is to see a bigger, more impressive versions of themselves. Humans want to see a 12 foot superbeing with four arms, who can shoot lightning from his hands. Yetis -- living half way up a mountain, as I do, they visit me occasionally -- want to see a 24 foot superbeing with eight arms, and so on. Do you see the problem?"
"I think so", said the student. "No matter how often you double a finite amount, it's never infinite".
"Exactly!" exclaimed the sage. "And if the finite *could* manifest the infinite, you don't need a huge but finite superbeing. If the finite cannot manifest the infinite , then ever bigger finite superbeings don't solve the problem. On top of that, they always demand an *external* manifestation. They've all been told to look within, bjt only a few do. If you look at your keys inside the house, why look in the street?"
"So..", said the student, after a while, "it's all the problem with the individual. They have all the resources they need , but they impose conditions that make progress impossible".
"And they don't like being told it's no one's fault but their own", sighed the sage. "There's a reason why I live half way up a mountain. We're not popular".
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"Not exactly", said the sage. "The gods only have power because we believe in their goodness. If you believe in a god but see them as evil, they derive no power from that."
"Then why is the Thunderer the king of gods? Shouldn't he be weakened by all the myths depicting him as a murderer and a rapist?"
"The gods of the Greeks are not so different in character from humans. When a human becomes ruler over other humans, do you not tend to see 'myths' spring up accusing them of all manner of vicious actions? And do you not tend to see such rumours spread only by those who already opposed them, while their followers dismiss them as absurd smears?"
"So what would happen if the entire nation were to all pick one god, praise that god all the time, and demonize all the gods of the other nations? Would they then gain the power to rule over the other nations?"
"Such is the way of the Hebrews. Their praise has made their God more powerful than any other individual god -- enough so to ensure their survival in the face of hostility from numerous other peoples. But, it is precisely this hostility which has weakened their God enough that other nations continue to rule over them, rather than the reverse."
"So what if I were to convince people that I'm the God of Abraham in human form, and then announced some kind of 'Judaism 2.0', which called on people of *all* nations to praise the God of Abraham exclusively, instead of just the Hebrews? Would I then become omnipotent, and my followers take over the world?"
"You have said it."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“It is partially true," said the sage, "But they also draw power from sacrifice."
"Like when we burn rams and doves and stuff?"
"Precisely. When an animal is consumed in a burnt offering, all that might have been gained from its life, or from its flesh and bones, goes up in smoke. The gods harvest this waste and futility, and they feast as their followers hunger."
"And then the gods reward these sacrifices with divine blessings?"
"Absolutely not! If the believers gain anything from the rituals, then the actions cease to be pointless, and the gods will go hungry. They need to offer their followers as little as possible in return, while encouraging them to sacrifice as much utility as possible."
"Wait a minute," said the student. "Wouldn't that mean the most pious societies in the world would have the most poverty, violence, and inequality, while the least pious societies prosper?"
"You have said it," said the sage.
---
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“It is partially true," said the sage, "But they also draw power from sacrifice."
"Like when we burn rams and doves and stuff?"
"At first, yes," said the sage. "The gods drew power by having us sacrifice animals. But they soon discovered that it was more profitable to have us sacrifice pieces of ourselves. The Blind God asks his priests for an eye, The Wolftamer asks for a hand, the Pedophile God asks his priests for the sexual organs of children. And so on."
"What about a god who had us sacrifice our hearts?"
"Like the Feathered Serpent?"
"No," said the student, not sure he was getting his point across. "To sacrifice our... y'know... METAPHORICAL hearts."
"How do you mean?"
"Well, it's easy to love those who love you and hate those who hate you. But what if a god ordered his followers to love those who hate them and hate those who love them?"
"Such a god might grow powerful indeed," agreed the sage.
----
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“It is partially true," said the sage, "But they also draw power from sacrifice."
"Like when we burn rams and doves and stuff?"
The sage shook his head. "The gods gain power from belief... but only when the belief itself IS a sacrifice. When your own eyes witness The Thunderer launching lightning bolts from his mighty hammer, it is only natural to believe in him, and it costs you nothing. But the more you learn of thunderstorms and electromagnetism, the more agentlesss the system appears to be, and the harder it becomes to shove an agent back INTO that system. So, when you try anyway, the more the Thunderer benefits."
"So, shouldn't the gods want to give the appearance of a completely clockwork universe, with no divine intervention whatsoever, such that there is NOWHERE for any of them to fit?"
"You have said it," said the sage.
----
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
"No," said the sage. "They gain power from people arguing about them."
"So shouldn't they reveal themselves to roughly half of every generation, in contradictory ways, so that people always have something new to argue about?"
"Long ago, they tried that strategy," answered the sage, "But it turns out that people arguing about things for which they have actual evidence are pretty good at converging on the truth. Even blind men groping at an elephant can eventually determine its shape. It is not truth-seeking that feeds the gods, but sophistry."
"What's the difference?", asked the student.
"It is not enough that we sing their praises. We must sing them BADLY. Nobody plays tricky word games to convince people that the trees must be real - they can simply point to the trees. Nobody threatens their neighbour to convince them that the ground is real. They can simply point to the ground. When your own eyes witness The Thunderer launching lightning bolts from his mighty hammer, you can straightforwardly argue that it is right to believe in him... and so your arguments benefit him little.
Later gods revealed themselves in more subtle ways, to more talented sophists so that their followers would have more fertile ground for making bad arguments. I hear the God of Motion and the God of Ordered Sets are doing quite well recently, and the God of Markets is doing even better."
"So wouldn't the most powerful gods have followers who argue for them using complete gibberish, full of made-up words and internal contradictions, with absolutely no reference back to external reality?"
"Exactly," the sage nodded. "It's one thing to convince people to accept one idea that contradicts observable reality... it's quite another to convince them that this idea must be protected FROM reality. So it is written, 'You have to deny that beliefs require evidence, and then you have to deny that maps should reflect territories, and then you have to deny that truth is a good thing...' "
The student's eyes lit up. "Say... somewhere out there, I bet there must be a maximally bad argument. After all, a bad argument that exists is necessarily worse than a bad argument that does not exist, right? Wouldn't that maximally bad argument fuel a maximally powerful god?"
"Hey, that's a good one!", said the sage, taking notes.
I follow a power called Inja. I was told by the trees to light a candle to Inja and this gives me answers and also is my memory (remembers things for me so I don't have to) I am told by christians that this is a demon but one person's demon is another person's god throughout history - belief is key - here is my little history of the demons in myth worldwide https://callystarforth.substack.com/p/demons-from-the-depths
"“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
"Once upon a time, that was the way. But man grew powerful, and soon there was nothing the gods could do openly to distinguish themselves from the works of man's own mind. Gods used to prove their nature by levelling entire cities with a word; yet there are many men in the modern world who could do the same, and who calls them gods?. Gods used to prove their nature by curing plagues; now man can do the same. Once man understood the secret laws of the universe, the gods who depended on performing miracles for belief had nothing left to distinguish themselves with, and their powers vanished as dust in the wind."
"But what about the gods who still have believers today? How'd they avoid the same fate?"
"Think about it. Once man deciphered nature's secrets and gained mastery over her, what was left for the gods to show their unique dominance over?"
"Man?"
"You have said it. Man has learned the rules for how to control nature; but he still does not know the rules for how to control the passions of his own heart. If you want to see the workings of the gods, look for where you see men's passions under control. Whenever you see men facing death with great courage, though their natural instincts tell them to preserve their own life at all costs; where you see men standing up to tell the truth, though their natural impulse tells them to go along with the consensus of the tribe where you see men forgiving great wrongs done against them, though their passions cry out for vengeance -- you know that a god has found the way still left for him to reveal himself."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
"There is no such thing as the Thunderer."
The student looked confused. "But I thought you said gods gain power from being believed in. Since so many people who believe in the Thunderer-"
"You misunderstand. The gods gain *power* from being believed in, not *existence*. The Thunderer is a fiction, and no amount of belief can change that. But other gods are not. There are those in Egypt who say their Pharaoh is a god; some in Rome call Caesar a god; it was not belief that caused these men to be born, but it is the belief of others that allows them to decide who lives and who dies. Others worship Love, or Beauty, or Goodness. All these things continue to exist even if you don't believe in them or not; but they have much greater power to affect your life if you do."
“Is it true,” asked the student, “that the gods only have power because we believe in them?”
“Yes,” said the sage.
“Then why not appear openly? How many more people would believe in the Thunderer if, upon first gaining enough worshipers to cast lightning at all, he struck all of the worst criminals and tyrants?”
“Because if the Thunderer were the sort of god who struck down every criminal and tyrant that he could, then we would know that he had not been a god during the time when one could commit a crime and not get struck down. For any god to make us believe fully in their divinity, the methods by which they alter the world must be kept mysterious, so that we can imagine they were already doing it before we knew about them.”
Additional hypothetical explanation, MAD deterrence.
If any given God directly intervened in the mortal world and proved Their existence and that Their religion was the right one, it'd drastically empower that specific God at the expense of all Their rivals. So the rival Gods would have to manifest in turn and stop Them. And since the only way for Gods to actually harm one another is to kill their rivals' followers, this would mean everyone dying, followed by the Gods starving to death from lack of prayers.
Incidentally, this is also the explanation for the fermi paradox. Intelligent life inevitably spawns whole pantheons of gods then is destroyed in the collateral damage of their creations' götterdämmerungs.